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Member Forums  »  General Discussion  »  Enemies of Reason Documentary Post reply
 20-08-2007 09:29:47 PM
Jayne
Jayne
Moderator
From: United Kingdom

Having just seen this on the TV tonight - although I was frustrated at some of the 'dogma' (which Richard Dawkins was accusing us in the Holistic Therapy world of ) I think that the people interviewed about their particular field on the whole came over very well.
The Consultant who practiced Homeopathy was particularly a good example of 'how this stuff really works' ( even though it was all put down to him being a 'nice person' and all we need in the health service are 'more nice people being Dr's!')

I was expecting a complete hatchet job for my own particular field - Health Kinesiology, but he commented on how much he enjoyed the session- and even though he put it all down to placebo I think just maybe he may have had his (3rd?) eye opened a wee bit!

Mind you - as the head of GSK (Glaxo smith Kline ) admitted last year - placebo is what they rely on too - so for the Dawkins of this world we're not in too bad company!

Has anyone else watched it here and what did you think?

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 21-08-2007 08:33:20 AM
Jon
Jon
From: New Zealand

Hi Jayne, please dont think placebo is an ONLY. Placebo is one of the most usful things around, especially in healing. See Bruce Lipton PhD 'The Biology of Belief'.

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 21-08-2007 10:54:37 AM
Jayne
Jayne
Moderator
From: United Kingdom

Hi Jon,
I in no way underestimate the power of placebo - my tongue in cheekness maybe didn't come over...
(In fact I think they should bring a new drug out called 'placebo' ;) ).

But for Dawkins he put all success down to the placebo effect - and although important as it is - it in no way explains how for example Holistic medicine works with animals and babies etc

Anybody else see the doc?

Last edited: 21-08-2007 11:38:57 PM

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 21-08-2007 09:43:45 PM
Neil
Neil
From: United Kingdom

Hi Jayne,

I saw it, and last the first one last week too. I knew what to expect from it, so no surprises from the content. I can appreciate that he is a "scientist" and perceives life in a pretty narrow way, that is fine, I've got no problem with that. The thing that struck me though was the language he continually used. It was so angry and insulting. He didn't just dispute the alternative scene, but practically spat on it. He perpetually was extremely condensending and belittling towards the views of others and to the people themselves. This wasn't just the normal rubbishing of alternative treatments and perceptions that these types of programs typically are. This was a straight-out attack that seemed intended to provoke and aggrivate. He paints a picture of wishing society to be cleansed of anything that doesn't sit comfortably within his perception of things, superstitions and primative mumbo jumbo as he called it. But this narrow perception and his being the only way makes him a fundamentalist, which is ironic really, as the last series he did was an attack on religion and religious fundamentalism. Some one is lacking in self-awarenes and reflection me thinks!

Om Shanti
Neil

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 21-08-2007 10:54:30 PM
John
John
From: United Kingdom

Hi Neil yes it was quite interesting and there were so many holes in it you could make a sieve out of it.
I just hope someone will do a reply.I am even thinking of writing to Deepak Chopra to see if he can do something and give him a little list of where there are some right clangers .

john

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 22-08-2007 09:01:24 AM
Andy
Andy
Administrator
From: United Kingdom
John wrote:
Hi Neil yes it was quite interesting and there were so many holes in it you could make a sieve out of it.
I just hope someone will do a reply.I am even thinking of writing to Deepak Chopra to see if he can do something and give him a little list of where there are some right clangers . john

Deepak did take on Dawkin's God delusions in an article that was recently published in Resurgence magazine http://www.resurgence.org/2007/chopra242.htm

Last edited: 22-08-2007 09:02:43 AM

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 22-08-2007 07:06:53 PM
Jayne
Jayne
Moderator
From: United Kingdom

Hi Neil,
I missed the one last week and to be quite honest I wasn't going to bother watching it this week but for the fact that one of my colleagues was on the programme- as it does get tiresome being slated off for pedaling nonsence & ripping the public off etc.
A few years ago I had a client who was an ME sufferer who also happened to be a physicist. I felt a wee bit nervous as I was placing magnets on him during the session , but to my relief he had no problem at all as it made perfect sense to him - I was dreading him asking me all the 'science bits' afterwards ( which I'm hopeless at!) but he was great and I learnt a lot from working with him.

Thanks for the link Andy - I really like how Deepak puts things over,

Cheers Jayne

Last edited: 22-08-2007 07:11:54 PM

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 23-08-2007 02:43:07 PM
Alison
Alison
From: United Kingdom
Jayne wrote:


Mind you - as the head of GSK (Glaxo smith Kline ) admitted last year - placebo is what they rely on too - so for the Dawkins of this world we're not in too bad company!

I'd be really interested to know more about this - any references?

Alison

Therapist Coaching

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 26-08-2007 12:53:15 PM
Jayne
Jayne
Moderator
From: United Kingdom

Hi Alison,

I've tried looking for a link but can't seem to find a reference to it -
maybe its been buried?
It was a news story I read about 2 yrs ago about the head chief at GSK being quoted as putting the success of their drugs down to the placebo effect and otherwise there was no point in taking them.This led to a fall in the share price and he was not very popular at the time as you can imagine.
I remember the report comparing it to the way Ratner ( Jewellery company ) shot himself in the foot when he said that they sold poor quality jewelllery leading to the collapse of the high street chain.
Sorry can't be more specific,

Jayne

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 30-08-2007 05:57:48 PM
W*HolisticUK
W*HolisticUK
From: United Kingdom

I am wondering if this link will help :)
http://www.dailygrail.com/node/5116

Last edited: 30-08-2007 05:58:25 PM

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 30-08-2007 07:50:26 PM
Jon
Jon
From: New Zealand

GSK put their foot in it a lot. Here's another one.

Drugs – Testing and Effectiveness

Most people assume that the double blind, placebo controlled, peer reviewed tests carried out for and approved by the FDA for conventional drugs are "scientific and prove the drugs effectiveness".

This assumption was blown out of the water by the head researcher at GlaxoSmithKline, Dr Alan Roses,who simply stated "our drugs dont work on most people".

www.ghchealth.com/glaxo-chief-our-drugs-do-not-work-on-most-patients.html


Glaxo Chief: Our Drugs Do Not Work On Most Patients
by Steve Connor

A senior executive with Britain's biggest drugs company has admitted that most prescription medicines do not work on most people who take them.

Allen Roses, worldwide vice-president of genetics at GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), said fewer than half of the patients prescribed some of the most expensive drugs actually derived any benefit from them.

It is an open secret within the drugs industry that most of its products are ineffective in most patients but this is the first time that such a senior drugs boss has gone public. His comments come days after it emerged that the NHS drugs bill has soared by nearly 50 per cent in three years, rising by £2.3bn a year to an annual cost to the taxpayer of £7.2bn. GSK announced last week that it had 20 or more new drugs under development that could each earn the company up to $1bn (£600m) a year.

Dr Roses, an academic geneticist from Duke University in North Carolina, spoke at a recent scientific meeting in London where he cited figures on how well different classes of drugs work in real patients.

Drugs for Alzheimer's disease work in fewer than one in three patients, whereas those for cancer are only effective in a quarter of patients. Drugs for migraines, for osteoporosis, and arthritis work in about half the patients, Dr Roses said. Most drugs work in fewer than one in two patients mainly because the recipients carry genes that interfere in some way with the medicine, he said.

"The vast majority of drugs - more than 90 per cent - only work in 30 or 50 per cent of the people," Dr Roses said. "I wouldn't say that most drugs don't work. I would say that most drugs work in 30 to 50 per cent of people. Drugs out there on the market work, but they don't work in everybody."

Some industry analysts said Dr Roses's comments were reminiscent of the 1991 gaffe by Gerald Ratner, the jewellery boss, who famously said that his high street shops are successful because they sold "total crap". But others believe Dr Roses deserves credit for being honest about a little-publicised fact known to the drugs industry for many years.

"Roses is a smart guy and what he is saying will surprise the public but not his colleagues," said one industry scientist. "He is a pioneer of a new culture within the drugs business based on using genes to test for who can benefit from a particular drug."

Dr Roses has a formidable reputation in the field of "pharmacogenomics" - the application of human genetics to drug development - and his comments can be seen as an attempt to make the industry realise that its future rests on being able to target drugs to a smaller number of patients with specific genes.

The idea is to identify "responders" - people who benefit from the drug - with a simple and cheap genetic test that can be used to eliminate those non-responders who might benefit from another drug.

This goes against a marketing culture within the industry that has relied on selling as many drugs as possible to the widest number of patients - a culture that has made GSK one of the most profitable pharmaceuticals companies, but which has also meant that most of its drugs are at best useless, and even possibly dangerous, for many patients.


What comes out of this is that Dr Roses must have been doing his genetic tests for 'responders' and stacking his studies submitted to the FDA for approval of the drug with these 'responders' to ensure they were passed by the FDA, knowing that once approved they would not be effective for most patients.

This shows not only how useless the FDA testing is, but also why so many drugs are withdrawn as being dangerous after approval. The testing is also ineffective at preventing vast sums of tax payers money being transferred to drug companies for a mainly useless product.

Couple this with the recent scandal of doctors writing peer reviews for trade magazines and not even writing or reading them, and we have some idea of the so called "golden standard of medical testing"

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 31-08-2007 09:12:48 PM
Jayne
Jayne
Moderator
From: United Kingdom

Thanks Jon, that was the story I was looking for .

Also , even if the drugs do work - at what cost in terms of their side effects? some of which may be fatal eventually.

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